I finally recieved an estimate from the foundation/set crew for an fha foundation. Its $10,600 for a foundation that includes wood pads and excludes cement piers. This doesnt sound good to me, but I dont know much about foundations. Am I getting *&%$ here? IS wood a good product to use for a foundation. She quoted 164 wood pads...is that unusual?
Im supposed to submit this to the lend tomorrow, any suggested would help.
Thanks, TC
foundation with wood pads?
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Tom
Tracy, Can you comment here?
Wood pads are acceptable under FHA rules. However, it wouldnt be my first choice. Concrete piers are almost the standard these days. Im not sure what to tell about the price without knowing the details. Hopefully Tracy will comment here and give his thoughts. Tom
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TC
Re: Tracy, Can you comment here?
The contractor wants to charge an additional $1500 if they cant set the house then pour the foundation. They arent sure if FHA allows that. Is it true you have to use an "fha certified contractor" for this work? Fha is not commonplace around here, Im having to find out all the info on it. contractors, and lenders dont seem to know anything.
thanks.
thanks.
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Tom
Re: Tracy, Can you comment here?
Thats something that you need to be discusiing with FHA. If you do not do this by the book, ala Fha standards, your likely to run into problems, big ones at that. If the lender and or dealer is not assisting you properly and answering your questions, threaten to back out of the deal until they do. I cant over emphasize how imparative it is you do this by the book. Tom
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Tracy
Re: Tracy, Can you comment here?
I did some research on your topic before I jumped in and shot off my mouth!
I get really upset when contractors/dealers start in with "It has to be this way" but cant show you in writing from any code book. (If you dont see it in writing, its just an opinionI)
I agree with Tom in the fact that concrete is the standard. The only thing I can see out of this picture is the set crew you mentioned earlier DOES NOT do concrete and want all the "nanners" for the entire job. So, they talk you into something they can do while in the works of setting your home also.
On the bright side of wood foundations, they can be constructed in any weather condition and this may also be a factor in your area.
Again, I agree with Toms comments and put the pressure of your questions back on the source it started with. Its not your responsibility to know the laws (although it really helps), especially if all you did was say I want this home and put it right here!. I would also try your local building inspector and if they cant help, just let them know there job is to put you in touch with people that can answer your question.
Stay on them! Remeber the saying "Out of site, out of mind" I like them saying "Give him the answer to make him go away!!"
Its your money, and you should have final say especially if you have options!
Good Luck.
I get really upset when contractors/dealers start in with "It has to be this way" but cant show you in writing from any code book. (If you dont see it in writing, its just an opinionI)
I agree with Tom in the fact that concrete is the standard. The only thing I can see out of this picture is the set crew you mentioned earlier DOES NOT do concrete and want all the "nanners" for the entire job. So, they talk you into something they can do while in the works of setting your home also.
On the bright side of wood foundations, they can be constructed in any weather condition and this may also be a factor in your area.
Again, I agree with Toms comments and put the pressure of your questions back on the source it started with. Its not your responsibility to know the laws (although it really helps), especially if all you did was say I want this home and put it right here!. I would also try your local building inspector and if they cant help, just let them know there job is to put you in touch with people that can answer your question.
Stay on them! Remeber the saying "Out of site, out of mind" I like them saying "Give him the answer to make him go away!!"
Its your money, and you should have final say especially if you have options!
Good Luck.
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TC
Re: Tracy, Can you comment here?
This foundation is " a state approved fha foundation( 86-1F)" My bid says "fha approved foundation with wood pads (164@$65=10,660.00" I am getting contradicting information from everyone. My lender doesnt have any idea about foundation requirments, she expects the contractor to. The contractor hasnt done Fha for 10 yrs...until last month, when a loan converted to fha, then all these compliance issues came up...termite, foundation changes...
The contractor was trying to give my a price off the house they just did...bigger snowload etc... they had no idea about the 2/10 warranty, thought I needed it regardless, she said I needed termite treatment AFTER the house was set, lender said before. Why would FHA OK a crappy foundation? Is wood going to last? Would it be a big mistake to go with this type of foundation? Doesnt FHA require cement or brick for the skirting?
Everywhere I turn I get more confused!
TC
The contractor was trying to give my a price off the house they just did...bigger snowload etc... they had no idea about the 2/10 warranty, thought I needed it regardless, she said I needed termite treatment AFTER the house was set, lender said before. Why would FHA OK a crappy foundation? Is wood going to last? Would it be a big mistake to go with this type of foundation? Doesnt FHA require cement or brick for the skirting?
Everywhere I turn I get more confused!
TC
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Eden
Re: Tracy, Can you comment here?
Ok, I'm coming in on the tail end of everything here, and trying to catch up, Tracy and I talked about your dilemma, and here's my thoughts.
First, 164 pads seems like an awful lot of "footers" How big is this house? Since you are going for a FHA with a wood foundation, I'm assuming that this is a HUD code home? In my experience in Colorado, concrete piers/footings are the standard for HUD and UBC code modular homes that aren't placed on a basement.
From my brief experience with FHA when I purchased my first home
(a really old stick built) my lender had to send out a certified FHA inspector. Totally different from the local building inspectors. When I worked with a developer, we occasionally did VA loans, then we had to have the VA inspector out to sign off on the home before the new owners could move in. Regardless, your Lender should know who the local FHA inspector is, and then maybe you could get in touch with them? That would be my best recommendation.
Though honestly, at 10k for a foundation(not a basement) you ought to be able to get a concrete foundation for about the same price, maybe a bit more. I would check with a local concrete company about a ribbon style foundation or a caisson style foundation. The only thing that should dramatically increase your foundation costs are if you have to dig down very deep, or you are trying to build on expansive soils. It is something I would still check on, always try and get a second opinion.
Good luck! Let us know if you find out more!
Eden
First, 164 pads seems like an awful lot of "footers" How big is this house? Since you are going for a FHA with a wood foundation, I'm assuming that this is a HUD code home? In my experience in Colorado, concrete piers/footings are the standard for HUD and UBC code modular homes that aren't placed on a basement.
From my brief experience with FHA when I purchased my first home
(a really old stick built) my lender had to send out a certified FHA inspector. Totally different from the local building inspectors. When I worked with a developer, we occasionally did VA loans, then we had to have the VA inspector out to sign off on the home before the new owners could move in. Regardless, your Lender should know who the local FHA inspector is, and then maybe you could get in touch with them? That would be my best recommendation.
Though honestly, at 10k for a foundation(not a basement) you ought to be able to get a concrete foundation for about the same price, maybe a bit more. I would check with a local concrete company about a ribbon style foundation or a caisson style foundation. The only thing that should dramatically increase your foundation costs are if you have to dig down very deep, or you are trying to build on expansive soils. It is something I would still check on, always try and get a second opinion.
Good luck! Let us know if you find out more!
Eden
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rmurray
Re: Tracy, Can you comment here?
Where is your dealer in all this...All dealers in the country are familiar with FHA standards since about 1/2 of all new business is FHA right now..
If this is a private purchase of a used home you have 1 big fundamental problem..FHA will NOT finance a used manufactured home that has been set somewhere else..so FHA would not be available..
The FHA REQUIRES...either a FHA approved engineer who designs the foundation...some require extensive soil tests and full prints on the home (available from the manufacturer..sometimes for a fee)..OR...an FHA approved inspector (separate from local building inspectors)...FHA foundations are different in all parts of the country...They take into consideration soil content...wind characteristic in the area..flood zone..seismic characteristics of the land...there are extensive maps and requirements for each area in the country...
FHA inspectors or engineers have to inspect the foundation at least twice..some require 3 inspections...After the home is complete...a FHA appraiser will have to do an overall inspection as well..
There are many other requirements of the FHA...The site itself has to meet all FHA standards...driveways have to meet standards...there are some restrictions about location..such as it cannot be near an interstate..traffic controlled airport..certian types of industrial operations..the list goes on and on...The FHA appraiser will be familiar with these requirements..though the builder of the home has to certify (there is a special form for this pages long) that the property meets all FHA standards..then the appraiser reviews to be sure..GEE...FHA even has some landscape requirements that could involve planting trees if there are none on the site..
The point is..there are many regulations and rules...you need someone familiar with the rules to guide you...this is the role of the dealer..he has the most to gain and it is his business to be able to help..
If the dealer is dumb about the rules...move on to another dealer...You loan originator should be able to get info from her/his loan source as well..
For foundation information check out
http://www.huduser.org/Publications/PDF ... _guide.pdf
The following is from this foundation guide..
WHAT THE WORDS "PERMANENT FOUNDATION” MEAN
The U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD), Federal Housing Administration (FHA), defines permanent
foundation systems as follows:
"Permanent foundations must be constructed of durable materials; i.e., concrete, mortared masonry, or treated
wood-and be site-built. It shall have attachment points to anchor and stabilize the manufactured home to transfer
all loads, herein defined, to the underlying soil or rock. The permanent foundations shall be structurally developed
in accordance with this document or be structurally designed by a licensed professional engineer for the following:
1. Vertical stability:
a. Rated anchorage capacity to prevent uplift and overturning due to wind or seismic forces, whichever
controls. Screw-in soil anchors are not considered a permanent anchorage.
b. Footing size to prevent overloading the soil-bearing capacity and avoid soil settlement. Footing shall
be reinforced concrete to be considered permanent.
c. Base of footing below maximum frost-penetration depth.
d. Encloses a basement of crawl space with a continuous wall (whether bearing or non-bearing) that
separates the basement of crawl space from the backfill, and keeps out vermin or water.
2. Lateral stability. Rated anchorage capacity to prevent sliding due to wind or seismic forces, whichever
controls, in the transverse and longitudinal directions."7
It is beyond the scope and purpose of this guide to assess whether a particular foundation system meets this definition
of performance, and would likely qualify for FHA Title II insurance. This is the responsibility of the FHA and its
representatives. However, this guide contains useful information that the professional and consumer may want to
consider in determining the appropriate foundation system to be used for a given installation.
Nearly 30 years ago when HUD adopted the nationally preemptive manufactured home standards, the stage was set
for the explosive growth of the nation's primary source of unsubsidized affordable housing. The information contained
in this guide is intended to complement and affirm this preemptive mandate and help the industry to continue
to meet the nation's ever diversifying housing needs.
7 U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development. 1996. Permanent Foundations Guide for Manufactured Housing. HUD-007487.
September 1996. Questions regarding whether or not a system qualifies under this definition can be referred to the U.S. Department of
Housing and Urban Development, Office of Consumer and Regulatory Affairs, 451 7th St. S.W., Room 9156, Washington, DC 20410, phone:
(202) 708-6409.
If this is a private purchase of a used home you have 1 big fundamental problem..FHA will NOT finance a used manufactured home that has been set somewhere else..so FHA would not be available..
The FHA REQUIRES...either a FHA approved engineer who designs the foundation...some require extensive soil tests and full prints on the home (available from the manufacturer..sometimes for a fee)..OR...an FHA approved inspector (separate from local building inspectors)...FHA foundations are different in all parts of the country...They take into consideration soil content...wind characteristic in the area..flood zone..seismic characteristics of the land...there are extensive maps and requirements for each area in the country...
FHA inspectors or engineers have to inspect the foundation at least twice..some require 3 inspections...After the home is complete...a FHA appraiser will have to do an overall inspection as well..
There are many other requirements of the FHA...The site itself has to meet all FHA standards...driveways have to meet standards...there are some restrictions about location..such as it cannot be near an interstate..traffic controlled airport..certian types of industrial operations..the list goes on and on...The FHA appraiser will be familiar with these requirements..though the builder of the home has to certify (there is a special form for this pages long) that the property meets all FHA standards..then the appraiser reviews to be sure..GEE...FHA even has some landscape requirements that could involve planting trees if there are none on the site..
The point is..there are many regulations and rules...you need someone familiar with the rules to guide you...this is the role of the dealer..he has the most to gain and it is his business to be able to help..
If the dealer is dumb about the rules...move on to another dealer...You loan originator should be able to get info from her/his loan source as well..
For foundation information check out
http://www.huduser.org/Publications/PDF ... _guide.pdf
The following is from this foundation guide..
WHAT THE WORDS "PERMANENT FOUNDATION” MEAN
The U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD), Federal Housing Administration (FHA), defines permanent
foundation systems as follows:
"Permanent foundations must be constructed of durable materials; i.e., concrete, mortared masonry, or treated
wood-and be site-built. It shall have attachment points to anchor and stabilize the manufactured home to transfer
all loads, herein defined, to the underlying soil or rock. The permanent foundations shall be structurally developed
in accordance with this document or be structurally designed by a licensed professional engineer for the following:
1. Vertical stability:
a. Rated anchorage capacity to prevent uplift and overturning due to wind or seismic forces, whichever
controls. Screw-in soil anchors are not considered a permanent anchorage.
b. Footing size to prevent overloading the soil-bearing capacity and avoid soil settlement. Footing shall
be reinforced concrete to be considered permanent.
c. Base of footing below maximum frost-penetration depth.
d. Encloses a basement of crawl space with a continuous wall (whether bearing or non-bearing) that
separates the basement of crawl space from the backfill, and keeps out vermin or water.
2. Lateral stability. Rated anchorage capacity to prevent sliding due to wind or seismic forces, whichever
controls, in the transverse and longitudinal directions."7
It is beyond the scope and purpose of this guide to assess whether a particular foundation system meets this definition
of performance, and would likely qualify for FHA Title II insurance. This is the responsibility of the FHA and its
representatives. However, this guide contains useful information that the professional and consumer may want to
consider in determining the appropriate foundation system to be used for a given installation.
Nearly 30 years ago when HUD adopted the nationally preemptive manufactured home standards, the stage was set
for the explosive growth of the nation's primary source of unsubsidized affordable housing. The information contained
in this guide is intended to complement and affirm this preemptive mandate and help the industry to continue
to meet the nation's ever diversifying housing needs.
7 U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development. 1996. Permanent Foundations Guide for Manufactured Housing. HUD-007487.
September 1996. Questions regarding whether or not a system qualifies under this definition can be referred to the U.S. Department of
Housing and Urban Development, Office of Consumer and Regulatory Affairs, 451 7th St. S.W., Room 9156, Washington, DC 20410, phone:
(202) 708-6409.
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TC
Re: Tracy, Can you comment here?
You know, Believe it or not, FHA is not really common place with dealers here in N CA. 4 of the 6 dealers I visited have NEVER done FHA. The others have done Fha but not too often. The dealer Im working with is out of state, he is familiar and has been a help. The problem is, he can not contract any of the work from the state he is in. He has recommended people to me, and thats who Im using,,,someone who hasnt done FHA in 10 yrs. Im having to find out the rules and regulations. They are evidentally ever changing. Ive been told that FHA is the "boobie trap loan for bad credit and bankrupcy. We have neither, just not alot of money. The foundations has been done by an engineer, we have followed all the rules, so far. Im just concerned with WOOD being in my foundation! Im learning this is not normal. I cant believe FHA would approve this product in the foundaiton.
Tiff
Tiff
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rmurray
Re: Tracy, Can you comment here?
FHA is not a program for folks with bad credit and bankruptcies...It is a policy of the federal government to foster homeownership...The federal government knows that the biggest barrier to home ownership is the large cash requirements of a conventional loan...It is true that the FHA is not credit score driven..and those who might have had problems in the past..but have had great payment records in the last 2 years can qualify..
It is possible ....with the seller paying closing costs and a charitable nonprofit corporation making the 3% down payment ...to buy on the FHA with little to no downpayment...I closed 2 home/land/improvement loans in the last week in which both folks (both single mom's..making large downs very hard to get)...both with great credit..got the whole package with only $500 cash investment..
It is silly for dealers to ignore this program...There are many good buyers out there without tens of thousands of dollars in cash looking for a home..I am sure even in your area..
You have not mentioned why you are going out of state to buy...but with such uninformed dealers in your area..I can see why..
You need to be careful though..By HUD code regulation..the dealer has lots of responsibility for the proper set up of the home...and if the home is not set right..the manufacture might have NO warranty responsibility...It is absolutely IMPERATIVE that the home be set to the exact specifications of the set up manual..Has the foundation crew asked for a copy...There is NO way to build a proper foundation without the manual..
Although wood is an acceptable foundation requirement..there are many others...
I did a little looking around for the proper FHA foundation guide on the government's web site...The guide is really a software program that is easy to use...You might be interested in the exact information an FHA engineer would be using....The link is to a FHA letter of instruction that has a link in it to download the program...With my high speed connection it took less than 20 seconds..I installed the program and it works fine...Check it out at..(I used snip it to get the governments 147 character address down to a manageable size)..
http://snipurl.com/6xfy
Have fun..
It is possible ....with the seller paying closing costs and a charitable nonprofit corporation making the 3% down payment ...to buy on the FHA with little to no downpayment...I closed 2 home/land/improvement loans in the last week in which both folks (both single mom's..making large downs very hard to get)...both with great credit..got the whole package with only $500 cash investment..
It is silly for dealers to ignore this program...There are many good buyers out there without tens of thousands of dollars in cash looking for a home..I am sure even in your area..
You have not mentioned why you are going out of state to buy...but with such uninformed dealers in your area..I can see why..
You need to be careful though..By HUD code regulation..the dealer has lots of responsibility for the proper set up of the home...and if the home is not set right..the manufacture might have NO warranty responsibility...It is absolutely IMPERATIVE that the home be set to the exact specifications of the set up manual..Has the foundation crew asked for a copy...There is NO way to build a proper foundation without the manual..
Although wood is an acceptable foundation requirement..there are many others...
I did a little looking around for the proper FHA foundation guide on the government's web site...The guide is really a software program that is easy to use...You might be interested in the exact information an FHA engineer would be using....The link is to a FHA letter of instruction that has a link in it to download the program...With my high speed connection it took less than 20 seconds..I installed the program and it works fine...Check it out at..(I used snip it to get the governments 147 character address down to a manageable size)..
http://snipurl.com/6xfy
Have fun..
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