Hello Karen,
There have been hundreds of posts that I don't agree with Karen. But I only focus on posts that are obviously incorrect, like Rose's post was. I really don't disagree with many post at all. But thanks for your comments.
Randy Eaton
construction quality
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T. Goodwin
Re: construction quality
I'm curious about the use of the thermo-ply sheating that
Palm Harbor is now using. Is it better than OSB with a
Tyvek wrap? I'm pricing a PH with Lap siding but would
like to hear the pro's and con's on the subject.
Palm Harbor is now using. Is it better than OSB with a
Tyvek wrap? I'm pricing a PH with Lap siding but would
like to hear the pro's and con's on the subject.
-
Randy Eaton
Re: construction quality
Hello T. Goodwin,
Please see new topic on discussion board called Thermo-Ply
Randy Eaton
Please see new topic on discussion board called Thermo-Ply
Randy Eaton
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David Oxhandler
Re: construction quality comparison guide
Randy you are correct !!
Poly pipe has NEVER been the problem. It was the systems developed by the pipe manufacturers to couple the poly that caused all the trouble.
The problem arises because the plastic pipe and the metal fittings expand and contract at different rates when they experience heat and cold. It is inevitable that over an extended time the metal crimp ring would eventually "dig into" and crack the pipe, as the pipe expands faster than the ring.
Once a positive joining system was developed poly pipe became as dependable as any other type of water distribution system.
FROM:http://ag.arizona.edu/AZWATER/awr/nov94/leaks.html
"Despite the decidedly bad news associated with PB use, manufacturers and other defenders of PB piping insist the product on the market today doesn't deserve its bad reputation. Manufacturers of raw PB, including Shell Oil, Hoeschst Celanese Corp., and Dupont De Nemours, blame the bulk of leaks and ruptures on improper installation.
PB manufacturer spokesperson Carrie Chassin says, "The main problem has been at the joints. Some plumbers just took old brass fittings and used them for plastic -- that's one piece of the puzzle." Chassin says the makers of PB piping have corrected problems with leaks.
PB manufacturers sponsor the Plumbing Claims Group (PCB) to replace plumbing for homeowners with leaking PB pipes. Despite manufacturers' assurances that PB is reliable, PCG uses only C-PVC, an indoor version of polyvinylchloride, a more rigid plastic piping with glued joints, in its repairs. Homeowners sign a binding agreement that releases the companies from further claims and requires repairs be done by plumbers chosen by PCG.
A contractor familiar with PB problems says ninety percent of all leaks are at joints in the piping. The contractor figures that about thirty percent of the problems at leaking joints are due to installation errors. Leaks occurring inside a line are almost always in hot water lines, sometimes in areas with no stress.
PB manufacturers have addressed joint problems with a new type of manifold design, which eliminates the use of T-joints and other traditional fittings used with copper and C-PVC pipes. Also known as the "manablock" system, the new design runs flexible 3/8 inch PB pipes from one common source to each fixture. Pipes are joined with a copper tube secured by two crimped copper bands to seal the connection.
Some contractors are not convinced that the copper bands are the solution to the problem. There have been complaints of leaking shutoff valves located at individual fixtures in the manifold system. Carl Triphahn says that the biggest failures in the new manifold design is that the PB tubing itself has been splitting.
Tom Sagau, Tucson City Council member and a plumbing contractor, disagrees. He claims the problems in the improved manifold system are the result of faulty fittings from improper installation. The new copper fittings are an improvement over the old PB joints, said Sagau, but "crimpers need constant calibration to make sure [copper bands] are not too tight." If bands are crimped too snugly, excessive pressure on PB results and leaks are more likely to occur.
As debate continues about whether and to what extent faulty installation contributes to PB failure, another PB issue is getting attention -- whether chlorine added to water supplies deteriorates PB causing weakness or holes in the pipes.
PB manufacturers contracted H.D.R. Engineering Inc., a Bellevue, Washington company, to study the effects of chlorine on PB joints. "There's been some evidence," says Steve Reiber of H.D.R., "that the acetal polymers that have been used to form some of the joint materials used with the plastic pipe, have a lack of resistance to some of the chlorine species common in distribution water systems."
Reiber found that "some forms of oxidants [e.g., chlorine] are more adverse than others and cause exfoliation that weakens the structure. Because [the joints] are under tension, it causes a leak." In other words, the pre-manifold PB joints, which were made from different plastics than the pipe itself, did deteriorate in the laboratory in the presence of chlorine.
Reiber says he has not looked at the susceptibility of the pipe to deterioration in the presence of chlorine. "To my knowledge, nobody has checked the pipe itself," he said.
Meanwhile, PB piping remains popular among many home builders because it offers savings of $200 to $600 per home compared to C-PVC and copper piping. PB piping is almost the exclusive material used in plumbing inexpensive tract houses and mobile homes. The piping itself is about half the cost of copper, but somewhat more expensive than C-PVC. Major cost savings come from lower installation costs -- PB can be installed quickly by semi-skilled labor.
Some plumbers were attracted to PB because customers cannot do their own repairs. The crimping tool required to seal joints is difficult to find in stores or rental shops.
Several Arizona municipalities have become sufficiently wary of PB to ban its use in new construction. Glendale and Goodyear left PB out of their new 1994 plumbing codes, and Chandler has banned the piping.
"We have not used PB in our city system," said Tom Mundinger, a Tucson Water design supervisor, "because there were some settlements in California early on, and there have been other types of pipes we've been happy with." Polybutylene however was approved for private use in Tucson, and the City Council added it to the uniform plumbing code in 1991. ...
The following organizations may be contacted for more information about the PB piping issue:
Plumbing Claims Group -- 800-356-3496 "
Know the players prior to purchase
Every sales guy you encounter says their home is the best built for the money. Well, now you can
know which companies offer quality built manufactured homes at affordable prices.
We can now, for the first time, offer you a book that
will explain to you, the differences between a well-built manufactured
home and a poorly built one.
Would you like to know which companies in the
industry have good reputations for servicing their customers? Buying a home is a
big decision so find out who's who in the industry and get honest answers to
tough questions. No where else is this information available, order NOW and save time by focusing on companies that take care of their customers with quality
homes that will last a lifetime. Get more Details about the First Ever MH Comparison Guide
webmaster
Poly pipe has NEVER been the problem. It was the systems developed by the pipe manufacturers to couple the poly that caused all the trouble.
The problem arises because the plastic pipe and the metal fittings expand and contract at different rates when they experience heat and cold. It is inevitable that over an extended time the metal crimp ring would eventually "dig into" and crack the pipe, as the pipe expands faster than the ring.
Once a positive joining system was developed poly pipe became as dependable as any other type of water distribution system.
FROM:http://ag.arizona.edu/AZWATER/awr/nov94/leaks.html
"Despite the decidedly bad news associated with PB use, manufacturers and other defenders of PB piping insist the product on the market today doesn't deserve its bad reputation. Manufacturers of raw PB, including Shell Oil, Hoeschst Celanese Corp., and Dupont De Nemours, blame the bulk of leaks and ruptures on improper installation.
PB manufacturer spokesperson Carrie Chassin says, "The main problem has been at the joints. Some plumbers just took old brass fittings and used them for plastic -- that's one piece of the puzzle." Chassin says the makers of PB piping have corrected problems with leaks.
PB manufacturers sponsor the Plumbing Claims Group (PCB) to replace plumbing for homeowners with leaking PB pipes. Despite manufacturers' assurances that PB is reliable, PCG uses only C-PVC, an indoor version of polyvinylchloride, a more rigid plastic piping with glued joints, in its repairs. Homeowners sign a binding agreement that releases the companies from further claims and requires repairs be done by plumbers chosen by PCG.
A contractor familiar with PB problems says ninety percent of all leaks are at joints in the piping. The contractor figures that about thirty percent of the problems at leaking joints are due to installation errors. Leaks occurring inside a line are almost always in hot water lines, sometimes in areas with no stress.
PB manufacturers have addressed joint problems with a new type of manifold design, which eliminates the use of T-joints and other traditional fittings used with copper and C-PVC pipes. Also known as the "manablock" system, the new design runs flexible 3/8 inch PB pipes from one common source to each fixture. Pipes are joined with a copper tube secured by two crimped copper bands to seal the connection.
Some contractors are not convinced that the copper bands are the solution to the problem. There have been complaints of leaking shutoff valves located at individual fixtures in the manifold system. Carl Triphahn says that the biggest failures in the new manifold design is that the PB tubing itself has been splitting.
Tom Sagau, Tucson City Council member and a plumbing contractor, disagrees. He claims the problems in the improved manifold system are the result of faulty fittings from improper installation. The new copper fittings are an improvement over the old PB joints, said Sagau, but "crimpers need constant calibration to make sure [copper bands] are not too tight." If bands are crimped too snugly, excessive pressure on PB results and leaks are more likely to occur.
As debate continues about whether and to what extent faulty installation contributes to PB failure, another PB issue is getting attention -- whether chlorine added to water supplies deteriorates PB causing weakness or holes in the pipes.
PB manufacturers contracted H.D.R. Engineering Inc., a Bellevue, Washington company, to study the effects of chlorine on PB joints. "There's been some evidence," says Steve Reiber of H.D.R., "that the acetal polymers that have been used to form some of the joint materials used with the plastic pipe, have a lack of resistance to some of the chlorine species common in distribution water systems."
Reiber found that "some forms of oxidants [e.g., chlorine] are more adverse than others and cause exfoliation that weakens the structure. Because [the joints] are under tension, it causes a leak." In other words, the pre-manifold PB joints, which were made from different plastics than the pipe itself, did deteriorate in the laboratory in the presence of chlorine.
Reiber says he has not looked at the susceptibility of the pipe to deterioration in the presence of chlorine. "To my knowledge, nobody has checked the pipe itself," he said.
Meanwhile, PB piping remains popular among many home builders because it offers savings of $200 to $600 per home compared to C-PVC and copper piping. PB piping is almost the exclusive material used in plumbing inexpensive tract houses and mobile homes. The piping itself is about half the cost of copper, but somewhat more expensive than C-PVC. Major cost savings come from lower installation costs -- PB can be installed quickly by semi-skilled labor.
Some plumbers were attracted to PB because customers cannot do their own repairs. The crimping tool required to seal joints is difficult to find in stores or rental shops.
Several Arizona municipalities have become sufficiently wary of PB to ban its use in new construction. Glendale and Goodyear left PB out of their new 1994 plumbing codes, and Chandler has banned the piping.
"We have not used PB in our city system," said Tom Mundinger, a Tucson Water design supervisor, "because there were some settlements in California early on, and there have been other types of pipes we've been happy with." Polybutylene however was approved for private use in Tucson, and the City Council added it to the uniform plumbing code in 1991. ...
The following organizations may be contacted for more information about the PB piping issue:
Plumbing Claims Group -- 800-356-3496 "
Know the players prior to purchase
Every sales guy you encounter says their home is the best built for the money. Well, now you can
know which companies offer quality built manufactured homes at affordable prices.
We can now, for the first time, offer you a book that
will explain to you, the differences between a well-built manufactured
home and a poorly built one.
Would you like to know which companies in the
industry have good reputations for servicing their customers? Buying a home is a
big decision so find out who's who in the industry and get honest answers to
tough questions. No where else is this information available, order NOW and save time by focusing on companies that take care of their customers with quality
homes that will last a lifetime. Get more Details about the First Ever MH Comparison Guide
webmaster
-
Tommy Lofton
Re: construction quality comparison guide
I read your response to the failed pipes and fittings. I have a 1986 Bridgewood that I use for about 2 months out of the year. I was notified about the class action but since I had never had any problems made the mistake of not filing and did not retain the information. Of course now the problems are occuring. If you have any info on the class action or know how I might obtain would you please forward it to me. Thank you.
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