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I complain on the quality of my house manufactured by Skyline

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I complain on the quality of my house manufactured by Skyline

Postby » Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:26 pm

MY STORY

My wife and I bought a manufactured home on December 20, 2007. The house was manufactured in 2002 by Skyline; model BIR/SKYLINE, serial number AC491 10272 PB. First, we had a refrigerator leak. We fixed the leak and did not think of under the floor system damage until the bathtub trap had failed. The bathtub sewer water spread under the floor system effecting about 500 SF of insulation, floor underlay and even the carpet in the house. Under-the-floor insulation worked like a sponge, delivering the water from the under the house insulation, wrapped by plastic film, up to the floor carpet. The insurance coverage for this damage was too small and the contractors' prices too high so I decided to make the repair by myself. During the repair I had to remove the wet insulation from under the house and left the floor joists and underlay flooring system open in order to let them dry. At this time Hurricane Irene struck our area creating more damages. The entire HVAC system under the house and more insulation were affected.

The flood coverage was significant but still could not cover repair costs. The repair prices jumped up in our area, widely affected by the hurricane and flood. The winter was coming and I did not have either heat or proper floor insulation in my house. My options were either to find an expensive contractor and fight with the insurance company for additional money or to replace the entire under-the-floor HVAC system and insulation by myself. Faced with the oncoming winter, I chose the second option.

I spent three month in the hell under my house but I am glad that I did this work by myself. I found and fix all poorly manufactured parts under my house. After I fixed under the house damages, I spent two more month to finish the mold remediation inside the house. During the damp August weather, the mold can built in a few days after the plumbing or roofing leaks. The air conditioning system was on for several weeks before we detected the plumbing leak and the entire house was molded, affecting the household health.

I also found the mold in the ceiling and in the bathrooms' walls. The moisture came from the ceiling bathroom fan and ventilation pipes. In my opinion this should not happen in a less than 10 years old house. I found many cracks on the roof shingles and sealed them before I repaired the ceilings and walls adjacent to the restrooms. I also spent several days working in my kitchen. I found that the kitchen plumbing was poorly fabricated. Multiple leaks created multiple mold areas. The entire kitchen cabinets and plumbing had to be replaced.

HEALTH DEMAGE

The biggest damage was done to my wife. She has asthma. I cannot prove that the house mold caused her sickness but the mold in the house and heavy mold remediation chemicals obviously worsened her condition. My wife works from home and has to spend most of the time in the house. Prior to the mold remediation being completed she used any opportunity to go out and can testify that the heavy asthmatic symptoms disappeared in an hour after leaving the molded house. For a year and a half, the mold in our house turned our life into a disaster. My wife coughed very much day and night. Actually all of us, my wife, me and my stepson were periodically caught by cough. Dehumidifiers and air purifiers were working all around the clock, making noise and increasing our electrical expenses.

I am a 58 years old man. I started the under-the-house work feeling like a strong man. After I finished the repair I now feel like an old man, ready for retirement. I constantly cough. I cannot work in any air polluted or dusty areas. I work as a construction professional and the construction dust is an unavoidable part of my job. Since I became sensitive to chemical smells and dust I cannot manage several trades and it is much more difficult for me to find a job. Instead of working I have to see my physician to check myself for asthma and/or allergy.

EVALUATION OF HVAC/INSULATION IN MY HOUSE

(I have photo and documentary evidences for all facts stated in this chapter.)

1. Based on my homeowner experience, the biggest mistake made by Skyline Corporation was to wrap understructure with only one moisture protection film. This plastic forms one gigantic bag, covering under-the-floor insulation, plumbing and HVAC system. Any water-leak which comes into this sealed bag from above cannot be easily detected until the significant amount of water is collecting inside this bag, destroying large amounts of insulation and forming mold.

2. Potentially leaking areas under the refrigerator, kitchen and restroom sinks, and bathroom tubs are not protected by any pans or drainage. Additionally, the joints between the walls and floor are not sealed in the kitchen and bathrooms. As a result, any plumbing leaks from above the floor deck can easily penetrate the flooring system and undetectably moisture built up under the floor system. Water spreads like a cancer inside the plastic wrap ruining insulation and HVAC system.

3. The similar situation can happen in case of a bathtub leak. In my model Skyline the bathtub trap is placed right above the HVAC duct. The HVAC duct in my model was manufactured from rigid insulation, unprotected from inside of the duct and easily penetrated by water from outside. The wet HVAC duct is built from rigid insulation and can become molded within a few days, spreading the mold around the entire house. The area under the bath tubs is practically unreachable and it is virtually impossible to dry or/and treat this area for mold unless the entire tub is removed. Such a repair involves extensive plumbing, flooring, HVAC and insulation repair. Small leak from the bath tub can easily turn into a huge problem as it was happening in my house.

4. The poor manufacturing of my house created a variety of potential leak threats and heat losses. The small floor cuts for plumbing pipes were not properly sealed creating mold in under-floor insulation in case of even a small appliance leak (for example from the refrigerator's icemaker as it happened in my house). 5. Roofing vents were not properly sealed, creating mold in the ceiling and adjacent walls.

POOR QUALITY AND EXPENSIVE MAINTANENCE OF SKYLINE PRODUCT

(I have photo and documentary evidences for all facts stated in this chapter.)

1. Some HVAC pipes were not covered by additional insulation. They were hung a feet beyond the protective plastic and were poorly connected.

2. Protective plastic film was cut in many areas, exposing the under-the-house insulation to the outside humidity.

3. Electrical box under the kitchen was not properly wired.

4. When I called to Skyline for spare plumbing parts (kitchen trap) they told me that the part I need is not on the market any more. As a result I had to change a big part of the plumbing and, as they said, "reconfigure" kitchen and bath plumbing systems. That was an expensive task.

5. Due to the small distance from the bottom of the house to the concrete slab, the under-floor maintenance of my house is extremely difficult and dangerous work. I could not find a contractor for the repair I needed. Nobody wanted this job even for a significant compensation. Only a very slim, short and athletic person can work effectively under my manufactured home. Actually this work requires team work. There is not enough air to breath under the house and even a good dust mask cannot effectively protect the worker from the construction dust, mold and pollution. There is not enough space to wear a heavy protection suit. The worker must lay on the concrete while he is making the repair. Some places are so narrow that it is even impossible to rotate the body. Some areas are so crowded by the plumbing and gas pipes, electrical wires and HVAC parts that the repair takes an enormously long time and it is very easy to damage one part while making a repair to another part. In case someone can find a contractor for such a job, the owner would have no control on the quality of the provided repair unless he or she were to creep under the house. Not everybody can do this.

COMPLAINTS COLLECTED IN THIS CHAPTER CAN BE OBJECTED

Explanation: I had no intention to complain about Skyline products before I had begun the repair. Therefore I did not document the early stages of the repair. The previous owner could be blamed for some technical imperfections, such as under-the kitchen sink leaks.
Therefore the complaints presented in this chapter could not be supported by documentation and can be objected to as fabrication. But, I wish to mention them anyway.

1. Some flexible HVAC pipes were not joined to the main HVAC duct at all. I found that one pipe was placed about 8 inches apart from the point of connection. The heat/cool was simply blowing toward the pipe, involving particles of surrounded insulation in the distributed air and polluting the entire house.

2. HVAC duct was brutally penetrated by plumbing pipes in several spots. Those holes in HVAC was neither sealed nor insulated.

3. The duct itself was squashed and had many air leaks.

4. Almost each HVAC floor register was full of construction dust and junk.

5. Multiple round cuts of the floor and HVAC duct were left in the insulation and in the main HVAC duct.

6. I also found several markers, pieces of construction materials, cut pieces of plumbing pipes and other debris in the under-the-house insulation and in the main HVAC duct.

7. The perforated duct from the dryer was neither properly placed on the floor, nor properly connected to the outside register. It also was not correctly sealed, blowing the dust from the dryer in the house.

8. Insulation in the bay around one electrical box was totally absent and wires were exposed.
************************
I summarized all my complaints in one simple web file which can be opened in a browser. I included many photos and have documents to prove my story.
I sent all this to Mr.Ronald Foster Director, Consumer Affairs, but did not receive any answer yet. I would love to share my story by showing my photos. I can send them to the moderator of this site or to anyone who is interested. I appreciate any advice.
Respectfully,
Andrew Kostadis
PS If you e-mail me, please write the subject:
“RE: your problems with Skyline house” or I can disregard your message under the threat of a spam.
Thank you.
Andrew Kostadis offline
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Re: I complain on the quality of my house manufactured by Skyline

Postby » Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:16 am

I understand why you are angry and frustrated but Im afraid that you are not being fair in your assignment of blame. It sounds like you purchased a five year old home that had a poor maintenance record.

The first problem you say was caused by the refrigerator. The kitchen appliances are NOT built by the home builder. If the fridge leaks and damages the floor I'm not sure how you can blame the home builder. In your words you did "not think of (the possibility of) under the floor system damage until the bathtub trap had failed". If the original problem was caused by the leaky fridge why would you blame the builder for your lack of attention to the full possibilities for damage?

The next thing you tell us is that the home sustained hurricane damage. Again if your home was clobbered by a storm I'm not sure why you are blaming the builder for the damage? I have lived thru several hurricanes and have seen a lot of damage to manufactured homes. I have also seen total destruction of brick homes by hurricanes that left the old mobile home next door untouched.

"Potentially leaking areas under the refrigerator, kitchen and restroom sinks, and bathroom tubs are not protected by any pans or drainage" in any homes built in America. I own mobile homes, framed homes and brick homes. The only place I have ever seen a leak pan is under a water heater.

The "belly board" vapor barrier under your home is installed as prescribed by the Federal HUD building code. What you think the benefit of a second vapor barrier might be? I have never seen a double vapor barrier under any home.

The flexible Heat/Air duct work under your home was not installed in or supplied by the factory. Heat and air systems are purchased separate from the home and installed in the field by a local0 HVAC installer. contracted by the original home owner.

Flex duct work has the insulation on the inside. IF your home has un-insulated flex duct and/or the flex is not correctly connected you need to look the local air/heat installer that supplied and installed the system.

Trust the seller..... but Verify before you purchase

When you purchase a pre-owned home it is not unusual to make the sale condtional on a professional home inspection. The cost (here in Florida) is a few hundred dollars and would have listed the majority of the hidden problems you have enumerated. I have purchased homes with problems. found by a home inspector, similar to those you have listed. I was able to bring the purchase price down accordingly, or walk away.

Did you purchase the home where it was? Or did you buy the home and then have it installed on a lot that you own/rent?
David Oxhandler
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Re: I complain on the quality of my house manufactured by Skyline

Postby » Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:14 am

Dear David,
Thank you for replying to my post.
I do not agree with your conclusion.

1. “The kitchen appliances are NOT built by the home builder. If the fridge leaks and damages the floor I'm not sure how you can blame the home builder.”
Why I blame the home builder? Because they did not seal the floor cuts for icemaker water pipe. They build the floor, didn’t they?

2. “The next thing you tell us is that the home sustained hurricane damage. Again if your home was clobbered by a storm I'm not sure why you are blaming the builder for the damage?”
Hurricane did not create the mold, bathroom tub leak did. Skyline built the bathroom, didn’t they?

3. "Potentially leaking areas under the refrigerator, kitchen and restroom sinks, and bathroom tubs are not protected by any pans or drainage" in any homes built in America. I own mobile homes, framed homes and brick homes. The only place I have ever seen a leak pan is under a water heater.
This building practice is wrong and the Federal HUD building code is not written on a stone. In case of any leak . . . please read my story again. Did anyone happen to check the statistics for respiratory problems among mobile home habitants? I bet it is significantly larger than for regular homes due to the under the house insulation concealed by plastic and hardly reachable for maintenance. This practice creates mold. I will do everything I can to let public know: modern mobile home practice is wrong.

4. The flexible Heat/Air duct work under your home was not installed in or supplied by the factory. Heat and air systems are purchased separate from the home and installed in the field by a local HVAC installer, contracted by the original home owner.
Thank you for this information. I did not know that.

5. Did you purchase the home where it was?
Yes I did purchase the home where it was. Unfortunately I did not have much experience with manufactured houses at the time of the purchase. Now I am stuck with the house which kills my wife. Walk away is not an option any more.

6. What can I say about other numerous imperfections?
I would not complain much on general poor quality of the house. It is a cheap house. Poor quality is expected. However, I found that the poor house design and manufacture, provided by Skyline, leads to potential health problems. This is my main point.

7. Would you like to see my photos? Can you publish them? They speak better than words. My goal is to broadcast them as wide as possible. The building practice has to be changed. Skyline happens to build my house. This is why I mention their name. If they use the regular building practice, public should know the dangers created by this practice.

Andrew
Andrew Kostadis offline
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Re: I complain on the quality of my house manufactured by Skyline

Postby » Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:24 pm

Andrew -

1. “The kitchen appliances are NOT built by the home builder. If the fridge leaks and damages the floor I'm not sure how you can blame the home builder.”
Why I blame the home builder? Because they did not seal the floor cuts for icemaker water pipe. They build the floor, didn’t they?

Yes the floor was built exactly the same way floors are built in any framed home constucted in America site built or factory built. Im not sure what you expect here?

2. “The next thing you tell us is that the home sustained hurricane damage. Again if your home was clobbered by a storm I'm not sure why you are blaming the builder for the damage?”
Hurricane did not create the mold, bathroom tub leak did. Skyline built the bathroom, didn’t they?

Yes Skyline did build the bathroom but apparently poor maintenance permitted the mold to accumulate. I own 8 skyline homes that were built between 1979 and 2001 and have not had a mold problem in any of them.

3. "Potentially leaking areas under the refrigerator, kitchen and restroom sinks, and bathroom tubs are not protected by any pans or drainage" in any homes built in America. I own mobile homes, framed homes and brick homes. The only place I have ever seen a leak pan is under a water heater.
This building practice is wrong and the Federal HUD building code is not written on a stone. In case of any leak . . .

MH builders follow standard practices. If the most expensive homes built in the country don't include pans under wet areas why wouold youi expect MH builders to exceed this practice??


please read my story again. Did anyone happen to check the statistics for respiratory problems among mobile home habitants? I bet it is significantly larger than for regular homes due to the under the house insulation concealed by plastic and hardly reachable for maintenance. This practice creates mold. I will do everything I can to let public know: modern mobile home practice is wrong.

The insulation practices DO NOT create mold. Leaky roofs, leaky appliances and poor maintenance are responsible for your problems.


5. Did you purchase the home where it was?
Yes I did purchase the home where it was. Unfortunately I did not have much experience with manufactured houses at the time of the purchase. Now I am stuck with the house which kills my wife. Walk away is not an option any more.

If you purchased the home where it sits and then discovers these problems, it seems that you must have failed to have the home inspected prior to putting your money down. Home buyers must take responsibly for their decisions. To make informed decisions you must perform "due diligence". That includes things like checking out the location, making sure that it is a safe for your family. If you have children investigating the local school. In the case of any pre-owned home a full professional inspection. A $200 inspection would have reveled the problems that now frustrate you

Walk away form a mistake is always an option if a family members health is on the line. It is senseless to watch your loved one get sicker and compound the mistake made not maintaining the home or inspecting the home before buying??


6. What can I say about other numerous imperfections?
I would not complain much on general poor quality of the house. It is a cheap house. Poor quality is expected. However, I found that the poor house design and manufacture, provided by Skyline, leads to potential health problems. This is my main point.

You are saying that you expected poor quality when you purchased the home??? A well maintained Manufactured home poses no health hazards. The best built home where maintenance is ignored, appliance and hurricane damage overlooked will experience mold and health hazards. There is no base difference between the way that Skyline was built or the highest price homes that would make it more susceptible to the problems your reporting
David Oxhandler
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Re: I complain on the quality of my house manufactured by Skyline

Postby » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:46 am

Dear David,

I am sorry, but you did not convince me. Let me try to express myself one more time.

A manufactured house flooring system includes:
1.Finish floor (tile, wood, linoleum. carpet)
2.Underlayment (tongue and grove plywood, particle board)
3.Floor joists on a metal frame
4.Blanket insulation
5.Protective plastic film, required by the building code

Plastic film is necessary because manufactured homes are placed too close to the ground (concrete pad) and does not have basement. Unprotected floor insulation easily accumulates moisture from the ground. Wet land and humid climate increase the danger of the moisture penetration.

The plastic film created in order to protect the house from OUTSIDE moisture. My concern is about the moisture coming from INSIDE in case of a leak, water spill, or plumbing failure. If the existing building code does not require any moisture protection from ABOVE, any leak can easily turn into disaster as it happened in my case.

I think the reasonable compromise can be found if the code requires minimum 4’-5’ crawl space for manufactured houses. Otherwise the under floor maintenance turns into extremely expensive and dangerous task.

Andrew
Andrew Kostadis offline
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Re: I complain on the quality of my house manufactured by Skyline

Postby » Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:17 am

Andrew -

A Vapor Barrier is required under any structure to prevent moisture from getting inside. It is not normal to have water running inside any building. The cost to waterproof a home would be prohibitive. Routine maintenance and timely repairs will prevent any leaks from becoming problematic.

double stacked
MH FLOOR REPAIR


I owned as many as 40 rental manufactured homes. We bring the homes back to new condition each time we rent them. We have a chart of routine maintenance items that we perform yearly. Every third year every one of our metal roofs are painted and our homes checked for settlement and re-leveled. We are equally pro-active with our site built homes. I discovered that if I took care of the homes they took care of me and when I failed to take care of them they punished me.

double stackedA home, manufactured or site built requires regular love and care. You regularly change the oil in your car. A structure has fewer moving parts but takes a beating from normal use, the elements and gravity.

<----- This is a 40 inch high pier

Setting a manufactured home 4 to 5 feet off the ground is heaven for tradesmen that work under them. The only place you will find homes of any kind raised that high is in flood prone areas or on sloped land

TO set a home on piers that high minimally requires double stacked blocks. This would raise the cost of installing that home by thousands in materials, labor and special equipment. Across the country many older site framed homes sit on stacked block piers. These homes have never been waterproofed but those that have been taken care of and have lasted fifty or more years.

Download The Manual for Manufactured Home Repair & Upgrade It covers all facets of manufactured home repair.

This is the only book of its type, available to the public, that we have been able to find. As you would expect from the title, The repair and upgrade techniques described in this manual are specific to manufactured homes.

General information that relates to all homes such as shingling, tape & texture, laying vinyl and carpet, and such are NOT included as that information can be readily found in any library or bookstore.



This book will answer almost every question on manufactured home repair that we have ever heard. Not only does this book show you how to repair and maintain your home, but also great methods for upgrading it.

We also have dozens of articles on manufactured home repair online in our MH Repair & Renovation Tips Section.
David Oxhandler
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Re: I complain on the quality of my house manufactured by Skyline

Postby » Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:06 am

David,

Thank you very much for opening my eyes on manufactured homes. Obviously we were speaking different languages.

I built and lived in regular homes (which have foundation and basement) for over 25 years and not used to “manufacture” mentality. To buy manufactured house was the biggest mistake I ever made. Now I learn that remodeling which occurs once in 30 – 40 years in regular house calls “maintenance” and may occur every 5 - 10 years in case of manufactured house. I realized that manufactured house + its “maintenance” cost the same or even more money than regular house. If I knew all I know now, I would never buy manufactured home. I lost money trying to save them. The English saying “we are not rich enough to buy cheap goods” is prove to be right.
Andrew
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Re: I complain on the quality of my house manufactured by Skyline

Postby » Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:53 pm

Andrew -

Your assessment is wrong. All homes require maintenance.

  • If your home is site framed and you permit leaky appliances to continue leaking you would have had the same results.

  • If your home was site framed and clobbered by a hurricane and you failed to fully repair the damage you would have had the same results.

  • If your home was site framed and you discovered mold and did not perform total mold clean up, and failed to fix the source of the water problem or leak the mold growth would continue and you would have the same results.

  • If your home was site framed and the guys that installed your air/heat unit failed to correctly connect their unit to the homes air duct system, you would have had the same results.

  • If your home was site built and had all the above problems and you failed to have the home inspected before buying you would have had the same results.

You are confusing "cheep" and "economical". Manufactured homes enjoy the economy of assembly line construction. If we delivered all the components that go into a new car to your favorite crack mechanic to assemble the cost of that car would exceed twice the cost of the assembly line product.


I'm truly sorry that you are having problems with your home. I'm afraid that your frustration has clouded your perception. If you had the home inspected prior to purchase you would, in all likelihood, not be going through this nasty experience.

During a storm cleanup, the indoor air quality in your home may appear to be the least of your problems. However, failure to remove contaminated materials and to reduce moisture and humidity can present serious long-term health risks. Standing water and wet materials are a breeding ground for microorganisms, such as viruses, bacteria, and mold. They can cause disease, trigger allergic reactions, and continue to damage materials long after the flood.

Mold removal doesn't have to be prohibitively expensive. Read the US Environmental Protection Agency's A Brief Guide to Mold, Moisture, and Your Home
David Oxhandler
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Re: I complain on the quality of my house manufactured by Skyline

Postby » Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:04 pm

Andrew;
I read your posts and I can sympathize with you, my wife and I have remodeled one other mfg home.
That was our first home in Salem, NY., we swore, we would never buy another.
The list is significant to the amount of repairs we did. Started with the addition that was added. Sheetrock put up terrible, so we completely stripped that part of sheetrock. Found multiple places where sheetrock screws penetrated wiring. As disgusted as we were we pushed on, finding more and more problems.
Installed window ac unit kept tripping the breaker, whole front of the house would go dark. It was at this point I decided to gut the whole house. Debbie and I argued over this proposition. Electric was sub standard as well as plumbing, and crappy windows screwed in from the inside. As I write this I'm getting long and drawn out and I'm sorry.
1. Gutted back 2 bedrooms and large combined closet
2. Completely removed insulation and vapor barrier from under home because of dead cats in between house floor and under house insulation.
3. Ran Electrical conduit under house to the back bedrooms installed new electrical circuits in rooms
4. Installed new 200 amp electrical service from the pole all the way to the house including a new 40 place box in the house.
5. Installed new subfloor in back bedrooms then new sheetrock, with 2 new Anderson windows. After that, we realized there's no other way to do this other than gutting it. We gutted everything except the kitchen, hard to cook with no kitchen. We were doing this renovation while we lived here with my wife and three kids.
6. Ran the electrical conduit to the rest of the non plumbing rooms and installed with new windows.
7. Our bathroom was next, floor to ceiling everything new.
8. Other bath same thing.
Didn't get done before winter, ice dams hurt roof.
9. Spring time, replaced shingle roof with steel roof.
10. Last room was kitchen, gutted, whole new kitchen, cabinets, floor windows.
11. New septic, and driven well 500' deep.
12. Installed central air conditions, and the design of the heating system has 2 large poly insulated ducts, installed a unit called Heatcontroller brand unit. All in one system, only two hook ups, cold air out, warm air return. Because of the design of the home, central air honestly shouldn't be used (in my opinion ) underhouse is wood, ductwork is un insulated, central air throws off a huge amount of condensation, Dripping off ductwork through new insulation. Took down insulationand and bubble wrapped all ductwork, helped, but didn't fix. Now looking back I wish I had an insulation contractor spray the whole underside of home with six inches of blue spray insulation, and including incasing all ductwork and plumbing.
Overview, would install devices from Watercop corp for undetected water leaks, under sinks behind washer, dishwasher, any place where water could do flooding. This unit detects water and shuts off water supply to house........Fantastic idea...expensive but great system...
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Re: I complain on the quality of my house manufactured by Skyline

Postby » Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:11 pm

It sounds like you bought a used home and did not have it inspected prior to purchase. How old was the home when you purchased it and how many times was it moved ?
David Oxhandler
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